VIDEO: Can Humane Society Reach 90 Percent Save Rate?
A resident spoke during public comment at Tuesday's county council meeting.
Erika Ponsiek, a Carney resident, challenged the Humane Society of Harford County at Tuesday's county council meeting to a 90 percent save rate of animals. Is this a realistic goal?
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Local Voices columnist Joan Neidhardt wonders whether the county government should have more oversight of the Humane Society.
Board President David Fang said the relationship with the county is just fine, thank you.
What do you think about the Humane Society's operations?
Sonja Hunn
2:38 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
Great job, Erika! We all know that a 90% save rate is possible because we've been studying the processes and watching results from other shelters. Now it's time to get the word out to the public, and let them see the results that are attainable under the right leadership. It takes a lot of work and a passion for saving animals' lives, but the end result is well worth it.
Mike
3:30 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
It is difficult to comment on HSHC’s operations because they have not been willing to share their written policies with the public, for example, policies on euthanasia and behavior testing to name a few. HSHC has also been unwilling to share their statistics until recently when they shared numbers for 2010. Based on those numbers, what IS clear is that the number of animals killed is TOO HIGH! Two out of every three cats were killed last year, almost half of the animals that went to HSHC were killed. I would like to see the numbers for the first half of 2011 to see if the statistics have improved. They are sending quite a few animals to recues so I would hope the save rate is much higher. The 2010 statistics for animals killed relating to behavior and temperament are also much higher than what other shelters experience on average, so I would like to understand the process and individuals responsible for performing behavior testing. I have no doubt that many of the employees that work there, are there for the animals but I think current management and leadership seem to be okay with status quo numbers and do not feel that they are or should be accountable to the public which pays about half of the organization’s operating budget with their tax dollars.
Peter Masloch
3:58 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
"We have the power to build a new consensus, which rejects killing as a method for achieving results. And we can look forward to a time when the wholesale slaughter of animals in shelters is viewed as a cruel aberration of the past. We have a choice. We can fully, completely, and without reservation embrace No Kill as our future. Or we can continue to legitimize the two-pronged strategy of failure: adopt a few and kill the rest. It is a choice which history has thrown upon us. We are the generation that questioned the killing. We are the generation that has discovered how to stop it. Will we be the generation that does?" -- Nathan Winograd
Jen
4:26 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
I commend Erika on her speech to help bring awareness to the troubling issues that plague the HSHC, and I hope more people will take Erika’s lead and speak out for the animals at future council meetings. I agree whole heartedly that the shelter can obtain a 90% or better save rate. However, to do this you have to have a board, management and staff that also believes it is possible. The shelter complains so much about pet overpopulation, but does absolutely nothing to help solve the problem. Why won’t the shelter be proactive and start a TNR Program and a Low/No Cost S/N Program? Even if they try to say it is because of financial limitations, they can apply for grants and no money ever leaves their pockets. HSHC, why are you so happy with a 50% kill rate? Why won’t you give the public the information they are requesting to see? Why do you think transparency and accountability do not apply to you? I for one want to see, not hear, the TRUTH of what happens to all the animals and how our money is spent. Most importantly, I want the HSHC to STOP the needless killing.
Karl Schuub
6:20 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
The same bunch of people that don't live in Harford County. You can betcha I'll be at the next meeting explaining exactly what you're ultimate goals are here. TNR is dead on arrival. We don't want it here in Harford County.
Jen
6:29 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
I am a Harford County resident.
Mike
6:30 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
I have been a Harford County resident for almost 11 years.
HarfordLassie
6:46 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
I've been a Harford County resident for over 20 years.
Ellen
9:44 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
I am a Harford County resident and would like to see TNR also. I think most people that are educated on the issue would agree with a properly ran TNR program
HarfordLassie
6:44 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
Erika has done an excellent job on her presentation. I didn't realize this was happening or I would have been there myself, not to speak, but that may very well come soon. I do plan a follow up to my blog on this subject after meeting with David Fang and Mary Leavens on Tuesday next week. I am meeting with them on their invitation and that invitation has been extended to others as well.
Since writing my original blog on the questions I originally raised, even more questions came into the mix. I have gathered information from a number of sources- a memo from HCHS outlining only some of the 2010 figures, the 990 tax filing by the shelter, a copy of the construction plans for the new shelter building obtained by the HOPE group, various past news articles and have spoken to people on all sides of this in preparation for my meeting next week with HCHS. What I don't have is what others here have expressed- more details on why more than 50% of the animals that go into the shelter never come back out alive, what future plans are to decrease the killing, how a new shelter will help in that effort, and what obstacles and problems the shelter faces. There is a lot of passion involved in this issue and there is animosity that has been openly expressed between those who support continuing the shelter's current operation and those who want dramatic changes. Is there a middle ground where everyone can meet? I'll give you my thoughts next week.
Karl Schuub
7:05 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
The middle ground would be looking at all other areas of adoption and giving no ground on feral cats. They aren't adoptable and don't belong in the wild.
KateCPonsiek
6:49 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
It's nice to see someone speak for the voiceless and actually hold meaning in what they do say. Animals are not only pets, but companions - and it would break my heart to think if I didn't go to my nearest shelter here in AZ to pick up my companion, what kind of state he would be in now. 90 percent save rate shouldn't be a goal to be achieved but a standard to uphold.
Jessika
6:56 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
I have lived in Harford County my whole life and my father was born and raised here, so coming from someone who has long ties to this county I am overly saddened that no one at HSHC can even take the time consider any changes. If HSBC doesn't have anything to hide then show your cards that's all I have to say.
Karl Schuub
6:57 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
Erika doesn't live in Harford County. I hip to the game now and will be contacting my representatives to tell them the reality of TNR. I'll cheer any other programs that are adopted if they work but this one doesn't and is damaging to the environment. Feral cats should not be fed in dense populations in city parks. They need to be euthanized.
Karl Schuub
7:04 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
Not only does she not live here but she in one breathe she talks about saving adoptable animals and in another talks about acheiving this 90% number with feral cat programs (we all know what that means). Feral cats are not adoptable.
Erika Ponsiek
7:12 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
I may not be a Harford County resident, but I work in Harford County and the Humane Society of Harford County had no problems with accepting my time or money!
In fact, the more time and money I spent there the more evident it was that things are amiss. Anything less than striving for a 90% save rate is unacceptable and we need an Executive Director, Shelter Manager, Board Members, and President who are aligned with this thinking. The needless killing must end somewhere, and it won't until there is a new regime in Harford County.
Karl, you are funny. If the county had an established TNR program, there would be less cats picked up, brought to the shelter, and killed which would increase the save rate.
Karl Schuub
7:35 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
Feral cats do not belong in parks being fed by a bunch of cat zealots. This is a migratory song bird flight path along the east coast - subsidizing wild cats is not appropriate.
Peter Masloch
7:41 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
In the last 20 years alone Harford County killed about 36,000 cats. If killing feral cats would be a good solution, I'm pretty sure that by now they would be all gone. But they are not. Killing feral cats does not address the issue of reproduction. TNR (Trap Neuter Release) is the only proven successful method to lower the number of feral cats AND addresses the issue of reproduction. There is not one single community in the US that ever has successfully lowered the number of community cats by killing them. Why continuing something that does not work? How many more cats need to be killed? 40,000? 50,000? 100,000? A long term study by Stanford University shows very clearly how successful TNR is and that it is the only proven method to lower the number of cats: http://catnet.stanford.edu/articles/report.html
Karl Schuub
7:49 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
All your links come from like minded cat zealots. Give me something scienfic and we'll talk but then you can't; can you?
Peter Masloch
8:09 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
Karl, please show me only one single community in the US that has ever lowered the number of feral cats with trap and kill.
"Stanford Cat Network
With 1500+ cats on the Stanford University campus in 1989, action was inevitable. Trap and “remove” was the original plan until the Stanford Cat Network was formed and entered into an agreement with University officials. Through the commitment of students, faculty, University staff and community volunteers, the current number of cats on campus is estimated at 200. Adoptable cats have been removed. Unadoptable cats were TNR’d. Attrition by age and natural causes has reduced the population humanely."
Stanford University is not scientific enough? How about a prove that killing cats is successful?
Sonja Hunn
8:19 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
Fellow animal lovers: I think we should not waste any more energy on Karl. He has his opinions and he doesn't want to come into the 21st century. Don't respond to his nonsense...let him spew. He is inconsequential and illogical and should be ignored. Besides, we are not cat-hater whisperers!
Christine
8:48 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
I've been a Harford County resident for 8 years. Thank you, Erika!
Kelly Marchand Furgason
9:39 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
Thank you Peter! So many folks read the false issues regarding TNR and believe it, thank you for pointing out the facts here. TNR saves lives when done properly!!
Kelly Marchand Furgason
9:51 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
Been a resident of harford county over 35yrs. It's LONG overdue to sweep in change at HSHC. Shouldn't matter where or what county you live in,if you support positive change, then BRING IT!!! Congrats to changemakers like you Erika!!!
HarfordLassie
10:12 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
Karl, Obviously you have made up your mind on the issue of feral cats, and that's ok, and you have every right to speak at public meetings. Unfortunately, there are so many successful examples of TNR working in all sorts of settings to reduce the number of feral cats that a scientific study isn't really necessary. Basic math skills prove it works.
On the other thread I posted a video that shows starting with just two intact cats mating and producing 2 kittens in each litter within five years the number of cats is in the millions. Multiply that by the number of intact breeding pairs in any colony. Get the picture?
There is no way in the long term that animal control or the humane society will have the resources in time and money to round up that many cats, put them down and dispose of them. They'd have to operate 7x24 with large staffs that do nothing but euthanize animals. You'll need more drugs to put them down, bigger freezers to store the bodies, bigger costs to the disposal company, and bigger salary/benefits expenses for all those people. Meanwhile the feral cat population continues to accelerate and get larger and larger every year, and every year your beloved songbirds are in more and more danger. With TNR the animals win, animal lovers win, and your songbirds win. We can't keep doing something because that's the way it's always been done when other methods control the problem better and are much more cost effective.
Christine
10:32 pm on Thursday, October 20, 2011
Even the HSHC is supporting a TNR effort. A small group of people have seen the need to get together with the support of the shelter and local vets to get a TNR program started. A lot of work needs to be done, but it is not impossible. Keeping feral cats out of the shelter in the first place will save lives and free up the shelter's resources to focus on other issues.
Stacy Rawlings
12:36 am on Friday, October 21, 2011
While Project Cat Snip, which I believe you are referring, does serve TNR caretakers, it is not solely in place for TNR nor was it exclusively created for TNR cats only. It was created in 2008 to offer low cost spay and neuter to anyone requiring it, be that TNR caregivers, low and fixed income individuals, and due to the economic recession, those suffering through uemployment who do not have the financial resources to get their companion cats spayed or neutered. The HSHC supports our efforts to offer low cost spay and neuter to those who need it, including but not limited to those who maintain a feral colony. More information on our program can be found by following our email link on the HSHC website or the Project Cat Snip page on facebook.
Michelle Ingrodi
12:48 am on Friday, October 21, 2011
Karl, what if they were wild dogs?
Karl Schuub
10:45 am on Friday, October 21, 2011
Wild dogs should be euthanized as well. This isn't about cats; it's about saving native populations from unnecessary and damaging predation. Cats are an invasive species that do not belong wandering outside.
Peter Masloch
11:24 am on Friday, October 21, 2011
But the cats are wondering outside for hundreds of years and still continue to do so despite the fact that the shelter has killed 36,000 in the last 20 years. Obviously your solution of "kill 'em all" doesn't seem to be working.
Michelle Ingrodi
11:47 am on Friday, October 21, 2011
Cats are an invasive species? Did you notify the DNR, because they're going to laugh at you.
Karl, please go find something else to complain about. Your county is changing, with or without you.
Nick
12:25 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Actually Michelle feral cats are recognized as a problem by the DNR. They have caused problems with many native wildlife. The most prominent incidents are on Assateague Island to native songbirds, reptiles, and amphibians in Western Maryland where they have a negative impact on the wild turkey population. Look on their website. http://www.dnr.state.md.us/irc/docs/00011180.pdf
Michelle Ingrodi
12:36 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
You're gonna have to pinpoint where, in that entire document, it shows feral cats as a problem.
I'd like to point out that the ponies are considered feral, and they destroy local vegetation and habitat, but you don't see crazy people running around screaming Kill Them All.
Phil Dirt
12:39 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
WIld cats are definitely an invasive species. They are not native to the area as wild animals and, just like the mute swans and the nutria in the bay, should be exterminated. Instead of spending money to remove the problem directly, we spend many times that to deal with the consequences. The same goes for non-native plants.
Slightly off topic, but iIt's a shame that misguided people with lobbying money can block reasonable laws from being passed to deal with this and to ban the importation and possession of exotic, non-native animals in the US. Morons like those who release snakeheads, pythons in Florida, and the idiot in Ohio should not have the opportunity to release these animals becaaue they should not possess them.
Nick
12:44 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
I thought as a computer mapper you would be familiar with the search/find function inherent to most browsers. If your's doesn't have one I suggest switching to Google Chrome or Mozilla Firefox. They are both far superior than Internet Explorer.
Nick
12:45 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
I agree wholeheartedly Phil.
Michelle Ingrodi
12:48 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Thanks, I use Firefox. I also read through that document and it said NOTHING about feral cats, which is why I said you'd have to pinpoint where it said something. That's your fight, I'm not spending time searching for it. If it's in there, you show me where. On page 28, under "Concerns" it says nothing about feral cats. Just an FYI.
Phil, you are mistaken. The county DOES spend tons of money to "remove the problem." And that is the problem itself, they've been removing and killing feral cats for decades, and what has that done? Have you seen an improvement in the size of colonies? NO.
Nick
12:51 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Page 15
Nick
12:51 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Took me 15 sec to find
Michelle Ingrodi
12:54 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
It says whenever they are found there, they remove them. If the cats were a threat or concern, wouldn't they be listed under that section? Or would that be way, way, way too much common sense for you?
Nick
12:56 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
You're awfully mean spirited Michelle. Perhaps that might have something to do with your lengthy criminal record?
Michelle Ingrodi
1:02 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Troll away Nick, I don't take bait.
Harford County isn't the first to bring up my "criminal" record. You have to realize that I could care less who looks me up, who thinks I'm a crappy person for having a past. I JUST DON"T CARE WHAT YOU THINK. What I do now is awesome, and people know that. There isn't a word you can say that will bother me, because you don't matter. You do nothing to better the world.
Nick
1:21 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Ah yes I see you are now an expert on my contributions to humanity. You have no idea about anything that I do. It's funny, when I picture you now I picture Eleanor Abernathy. You can use your firefox to look that up if you want.
Christine
9:44 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
..or wild boars, or wild horses or swans or pythons and mambas, Chinese mussles or kudzu or soy beans?
Carolyn Fox
11:25 am on Friday, October 21, 2011
As a long-time resident of Harford County and concerned animal advocate, I thank you Erika for speaking out about need for improvements at HSHC. Keep up the good work; will support you any way I can.
Erika Ponsiek
2:19 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
I'm still not sure how the only thing Karl sees in all this is "feral cats must die." Feral cats are only a small percent of the issue. The issue is that HSHC kills healthy, treatable, adoptable companion animals and we're moving to stop these practices, along with controlling the population of ferals.
Nick
3:15 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Erika,
I support and applaud your efforts to reduce the kill rate in Harford County. I will support any effort to increase the placement of adoptable animals. I will not however support releasing non-adoptable animals back onto the streets. Most of the research that has been presented on this topic advocating TNR programs is on sites that only look at one side of the issue and are only attempting to further their agenda. If you are able to decrease the kill rate in Harford without intentionally releasing cats into the wild, you will have my full support. I do not however agree with TNR and will continue to advocate against it to my local representatives.
Erika Ponsiek
4:39 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Nick, I appreciate the fact that you support lowering the kill rate. You don't have to support the TNR programs, but you can still reach out to your county officials and express your concern about how HSHC is run.
One thing though- We don't round up raccoons and kill them, so I would like to ask why is it acceptable for you to support killing the feral cats?
Nick
5:28 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Erika,
I would not advocate the rounding up of any native species. Feral cats are not native and a determent to the environment. Though raccoons can be a nuisance, when not interfered with by man will attain a natural equilibrium with their environment. Contrary to Amanda's statement I do not like to argue for the sake of arguing, I just feel that the people who post in defense of TNR are using questionable material to formulate their opinions and also let their emotional attachments to cats cloud their objectivity and judgment. I would like to point out that much of the so called research that has been used to justify TNR relies on estimates of cat populations by the caretakers that feed them. This is not scientific research. I would urge all of you to read the following article from the American Veterinarian Medical Association. It is lengthy and not the easiest read, but uses science that does not rely on population estimates. It details many failures of TNR and the extreme negative impact that it has had on native wildlife. http://www.avma.org/avmacollections/feral_cats/javma_225_9_1369.pdf
Sonja Hunn
3:50 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Did you read the comment above by "Christine?" She said: "Even the HSHC is supporting a TNR effort. A small group of people have seen the need to get together with the support of the shelter and local vets to get a TNR program started. A lot of work needs to be done, but it is not impossible. Keeping feral cats out of the shelter in the first place will save lives and free up the shelter's resources to focus on other issues." So, even the shelter knows that killing the feral cats isn't the answer. It seems crazy to continue spending money on a solution that has been tried and has failed. There are two choices: (1) Continue trapping and killing feral cats while the the cats remaining in the colony continue to reproduce and replace the killed cats; or (2) trap and spay/neuter the cats, return them to the colony to keep the numbers stable, and let the colony die out naturally. I understand you don't want the cats returned to your neighborhood, but the colony has to be kept intact for this to work. It's not a question of keeping the cats alive just to keep the cats alive. It's a question of doing something to get rid of the colonies once and for all. It's not a quick fix, which I know a lot of people want. But if killing the cats was the answer, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now because there would be no feral cats. Seriously, the killing method has been tried for years and years and years and has failed miserably.
Amanda
4:10 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Can we just stop answering Karl and Nick about feral cats. They will never get it. TNR works. Karl and Nick just enjoy seeing their name on all these blogs and they seem like the type that will argue with themselves.
You did a great presentation Erika. Thank you so much for speaking for the animals. Let's hope that with a new shelter the management will work towards a 90% live release rate by the time it is completed. How can you not want a 90% live release rate versus a 50% live release rate. We are a country that values life and that life includes our companion pets.
Christine
7:28 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
I agree, Amanda. They say the same thing about 100 times each day on every blog they can find. They only thing to do is ignore them.
Nick
7:43 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
http://www.avma.org/avmacollections/feral_cats/javma_225_9_1369.pdf
Peter Masloch
8:58 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Agreed, Amanda. Let's just move on. To reach a better live release rate I would like to encourage you to look at the number of dogs killed for temperament. Then you will have to look at how they tested the temperament, there are several different tests Shelters use. Most high kill Shelter are using a test developed by Sue Sternberg. It is the test where they go with a rubber hand after the food that the dog is eating. Many dogs will fail the food aggressiveness and toy aggressiveness test which is a huge part of Sue Sternberg's test. Usually a dog that is food aggressive or toy aggressive according to this test will be marked as "unadoptable".
Here is some info:
http://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2011/07/temperament-testing-bias-ridiculousness-in-shelter-practice.html
http://www.nokillnow.com/TemperamentTestingDirtyLittleSecret.pdf
Nick
9:12 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
I'm disappointed Peter. You ask for proof of TNR not reducing feline numbers. I provide you with an article from a scientific journal detailing just that and you don't even bother to look. I at least took the time to view the links you posted even if they were from sites that drew conclusions and then looked for science to back them up instead of the other way around.
Carolyn Fox
4:32 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Ditto, Amanda. But, why wait for the new building to start working on the 90% save rate? Many more adoptable animals could be saved before then if HSHC would start NOW to implement a plan for a lower kill rate.
Christine
10:11 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
Yes, I would start by looking at the volunteer base of over 1000 people (according to HSHC). That is a HUGE potential to tap into. Foster care is a valuable program as is dog enrichment. Procedures that are available for review and followed consistently. What is the policy for temperament testing and who decides whether or not an animal is sick beyond hope? Community outreach, a helpline for people who have questions about keeping their pet. Approved rescue organizations, established relationships with veterinarians, spay/neuter BEFORE the animal is adopted out..... the list goes on and on.
Amanda
10:13 pm on Friday, October 21, 2011
I agree with you Peter about kill shelters using temperament testing as a means to justify killing them. You have to ask when is the testing being done, where is the testing administered, who is testing, do you take in consideration that the dog is scared, hungry, injured, etc. I loved the link you provided on Temperament Testing a Dirty Little Secret. Have to totally agree with that.
Karl Schuub
8:59 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
I suggest anyone who has read this thread...and is a Harford county resident contact thier local representative as well as the health department and shelter because it's clear to me these folks are using 90% as code to force the shelters to adopt TNR as there's no other way to hit that number without it. If you care about songbirds, and appreciate and respect native animals your voice depends on it. The city of Los Angeles was hoodwinked by these same folks and after just a few years have rescinded support for TNR as they saw disasterous results. Once TNR is adopted as policy we've lost the ability to control feral cat populations because the county and/or shelter will route the wild cats directly to these largely unmonitored groups who eventually just let them go again regardless of the environment, be it wetland, city park, field or abondoned house. Each cat kills on average 36 birds each per year and that doesn't include the toads, chipmunks, young snakes, etc. that are killed mostly for cat sport. Zero birds fledge in areas with cat populations...they can't survive on the ground for very long and won't be steady flyers for days after leaving the nest. I don't begrudge cat owners who are responsible and I don't hate cats, but in an age with loss of habitat and increasing human populations it's acknowledge that there has been a striking decrease in songbird populations. Releasing feral cats into the environment and by the thousands surely won't help.
Michelle Ingrodi
9:03 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
If you agree with Karl, please also submit your plan to your local reps as to how you're going to differentiate between feral cats and a pet that is an indoor/outdoor animal, so that the county doesn't kill an owned animal by mistake. Also please include the difference in birds killed by ferals, and birds killed by indoor/outdoor cats, so that the county can have the EXACT numbers. Thank you, and God Bless America.
Karl Schuub
9:13 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Michelle would not an owned cat have either a collar and/or be chipped? Surely a responsible cat owner would bother to identify their cat as having had a rabies vaccine which would require a collar. Maybe you cat folks could support not just a spay and neuter program, but also encourage people to chip thier pets. I had mine done and it costs only $45 bucks. I would suggest if you can't be bothered to chip or put a collar on your animal you ought not have an animal.
Michelle Ingrodi
9:24 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Karl, when you figure out how to get people to become a responsible pet owner, please tell the world, because there are thousands of rescue groups like myself that would LOVE to get back to our old lives.
Also, why does it have to be done by "us folks"? You don't even want me in your county, now you're telling me to support a microchipping program there in addition to spay/neuter? Jeez.
For the record, rescues believe that nobody should own an animal who can't afford to care for it properly. I don't adopt out to anyone who says (on the application) that they'll allow their cat outdoors. But with places like Freecycle, Craigslist, newspapers, and Penny Saver, I can't exactly keep irresponsible people from owning animals.
Michelle Ingrodi
9:26 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Not to mention that most collars these days are break away collars. So a pet could be outside with a collar on, and get it snagged on something and lose it. What then?
Karl Schuub
9:31 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Michelle again your response to my question is simply evasive. You said how will the shelter know which is a feral or a housecat and I said chip or collar and you went on about a breakaway collar. Any pet, dog or cat NEEDS to be identified as having had a rabies shot. If you can't bother to do that and your cat is impounded and eventually euthanized it's on you.
Michelle Ingrodi
9:37 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Yes, I definitely didn't bring up valid points. Thanks for being the "Kill-Them-All-Karl" that we know. Glad your county has a little bit of sense to ignore you, which is what I'm about to do.
HarfordLassie
9:53 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
so Karl, if I understand you correctly, the actions of irresponsible people should be paid for by the death of innocent animals?
Karl Schuub
10:09 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
I had my dog put down earlier this year...my husband stayed with him; I had to leave because I couldn't bear to witness it. Ask any veterinarian and they'll assure you it's painless for the animal; certainly not a form of "suffering". Euthanasia is a loss of life; not doubt, but you can't be a responsible citizen and suggest that a wild cat's life trumps that of a healthy ecosystem because you think it's unfair to the cat. In an earlier email; at the start of all these very enlightening comments Peter chose to use words like murder and rape in the context of feral cats. It became very apparent to me the sorts of people involved in this TNR movement and it borders on irrational. Nobody wants animals to suffer and everybody wants improvements where they are possible to the facility, to the populations of animals; to programs to ensure more animals can be adopted...but the idea that it's responsible to release feral, unadoptable predatory animals into potentially sensitive habitats is beyond ludicrous.
HarfordLassie
9:09 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Baltimore City adopted TNR in 2009. Here are the regulations-
http://www.baltimorehealth.org/info/2009_03_06.TNRRegs.pdf
Karl Schuub
9:15 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Joan - with all due respect the city doesn't exactly have the sort of open space and habitat that I believe we're fortunate enough to have here in Harford County. I really don't think what they do in Baltimore City matters one iota here and thank GOD.
Michelle Ingrodi
4:55 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Was that you that stopped by my booth yesterday with the awesome collie in a costume? I had all the jewelry for sale!
HarfordLassie
9:11 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Md. offers a special automobile tag for TNR
http://www.communitycatsmd.org/tnrplates.html
Karl Schuub
9:52 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
You're giving yourself away here Joan...thought this was all about collies?
HarfordLassie
1:27 am on Monday, October 24, 2011
Karl, it's about all the animals that are being killed instead of finding homes, rescues, fosters or other alternatives.
Sonja Hunn
10:28 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
I've said this before. We need to ignore KIll-em-Karl. Let him talk to himself. He can't tell us a single community in which his kill-em-all method has worked to rid that community of a feral cat colony, yet he doesn't have enough sense to realize that there are none because the method doesn't work. A method practiced for years and years and years has not solved the problem, but that's what Kill-em-Karl wants to have done. He is an illogical person with no conscience. Euthanization of a healthy animal is killing, Karl. Sorry you don't agree. But for the rest of us, let's let Kill-em-Karl wallow in his own delusions - he obviously enjoys them. He is just taking our time and attention away from our mission, which is a lot more than TNR.
Christine
10:33 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
I thought it was about whether or not the HSHC should be held accountable. It was about improving the rate of healthy, adoptable animals finding a home. Karl, I am sorry for the loss of your dog. If you had stayed in the room with your husband you would have witnessed that euthansia can be a peaceful process if performed correctly by a trained veterinarian. Please ask the shelter to spend a day in their tech room and report back to us.
Karl Schuub
12:21 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Christine: Our family vet is wonderful and our dog contracted a very serious illness so when we knew it was no longer fair to him we took him to our vet; it had already been discussed and it was time. They wouldn't have assured me it was painless and peaceful for the animal if that were not true; my husband held him. Both of us love animals both the ones in the house and the ones outside. We came to the shelter to adopt another dog shortly thereafter - the shelter was none of the horrible things described here. I couldn't agree with you more; the shelter's role should be about improving the rate of healthy, animals finding homes. We seem to be arguing about the fates of the most unfortunate animals found too damaged to be eligible for homes - it is our fault as humans that this happens but as bad as that might be two wrongs cannot make a right - you can't just cut animals loose because mistakes have so obviously been made. Feral means feral - no amount of attention will change thier nature.
Peter Masloch
12:50 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
While I feel sorry about the loss of your dog, the naivety you are displaying here regarding euthanization is very scary. The euthanization at your Vet office is different than then one performed at a high kill Shelter. And that is what you want to create in your County, a high kill Shelter.
A 7-week-old kitten weighs about a pound; its veins are the size of vermicelli. So if you’re administering a lethal dose of sodium pentobarbital, an anesthetic agent blue as a summer sky, you’ll probably inject directly into its round, spotted belly. If you have five cages of kittens to kill this morning, you don’t have time to go looking for slippery little veins.
A kitten with a hand gripping the scruff of its neck and a needle in its belly will squeal in terror, but once you’ve pulled out the needle and placed it back into a cage with its siblings, it will shake its head and start to get on with its kittenish business. Then it starts to look woozy, and begins to stumble around. It licks its lips, tasting the chemical absorbed into its system. Soon, it becomes too sedated to stand. The animal collapses, and when its lungs become too sedated to inflate, it stops breathing.
On adult cats the preferred method is the heart stick. It is extremely painful for the animal, special if an unskilled person does the procedure and has to stick the needle in to the heart several times or when not enough sodium pentobarbital was used. the procedure has to be repeated.
Brad Gerick
10:36 am on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Here are the highlighted pets up for adoption this week at the Humane Society. http://ow.ly/764Gw
Karl Schuub
3:03 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
In the interest of acuracy; can we fix the heading on this thread from "a resident" which is not description as everyone is a resident. It ought to read "a resident of Baltimore County" as that is more honest and informative.
Karl Schuub
2:15 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Peter...you and I both know that a 7 week old kitten will normally and most often be put up for adoption as they have no as yet become feral. I'm talking about feral cats and you want to talk at cute little kittens. I might add - I wonder how a chipmunk feels having it's head ripped off by a cat or a baby bird first batted around for awhile and left to die of it's injuries only because the cat got bored.
Peter Masloch
4:03 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
So, it is all about revenge, isn't it? Of course they will kill the kittens too. What makes you think they wouldn't? With your actions you will be overloading YOUR shelter with cats and you don't leave them with another choice. YOUR County and YOUR shelter will be making national news: "The cat Slaughterhouse of the east coast". I bet your County officials will thank you for that.
HarfordLassie
1:31 am on Monday, October 24, 2011
Nature is not soft and warm Karl. Every day animals give up their lives to be a food source for another animal. While I don't want to see any animal wind up as breakfast, it's the way nature works. I get that you are a songbird lover and I guess that's why I'm not understanding why you are against TNR when it reduces the number of cats killing them. When you round them up and kill them you never get all of them and they just breed a new colony. When you fix them, they slowly get smaller in numbers instead of slowly becoming overwhelming.
Nick
8:28 am on Monday, October 24, 2011
You're right Joan. That is how nature works. How nature doesn't work is taking one species and subsidizing it with daily feedings.
Christine
9:58 am on Monday, October 24, 2011
I subsidize birds in my backyard with daily feedings. So far I have not attracted any killer cats.
HarfordLassie
5:51 pm on Monday, October 24, 2011
I feed the squirrels nuts and I feed the birds seed and fruits, usually during the winter months when it's hard for them to find food buried under snow. I have rabbits, possum, raccoon, deer, fox, birds and other wildlife behind my house in the woods and I see chipmunks, squirrels and snakes around the outside of the house. Usually the dogs spot them before I ever see them and wild animals usually will flee when seen. Unfortunately the biggest threat to all of these is man.
Karl Schuub
2:35 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Quoted from this article:
"Nearly 80 percent of the birds were killed by predators, and cats were responsible for 47 percent of those deaths, according to the researchers, from the Smithsonian Institution and Towson University in Maryland. Death rates were particularly high in neighborhoods with large cat populations.
Predation was so serious in some areas that the catbirds could not replace their numbers for the next generation, according to the researchers, who affixed tiny radio transmitters to the birds to follow them. It is the first scientific study to calculate what fraction of bird deaths during the vulnerable fledgling stage can be attributed to cats.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/science/21birds.html?_r=1
Peter Masloch
4:00 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
I would like to encourage you to show us only one single community in the United States that has lowered the numbers of feral cats with "trap and kill". Your own County is the best example that it doesn't work. YOUR County killed 36,000 cats in the last 20 years. What is the result of it? There is no result. But, I can make you a list with hundreds of communities in the United States that have successfully lowered the numbers of feral cats with TNR. Make sure you include that in your letter to your County officials.
Nick
4:18 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
I already showed you such an article Peter. You chose to ignore it.
Peter Masloch
4:35 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
That is true, you showed me an article. That's it. Just an article. Where is the community in the US that has lowered the number of feral cats with trap and kill? Where? It sure didn't work in YOUR county in the last 50 years.
Jen
3:54 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
There are many articles out there that say cats are the main predator to birds, but there are just as many that disprove this myth. This particular article is about a Smithsonian Researcher who was doing research on cats and birds, http://www.examiner.com/cats-in-new-york/smithsonian-researcher-accused-of-poisoning-feral-cats. She is accused of poisoning feral cats and being charged with animal cruelty. I would venture to say her research is very biased and she is a very disturbed individual. I know it is a total waste of my breath, but if you want the true facts about cats, once again all you have to do is go visit the Alley Cat Allies website. That being said, there is a lot more to change at the shelter, not just implementing a TNR Program. I personally want to see HSHC be held accountable to the public and make all their records transparent. I want to see what actual external audits have been done, including but not limited to animal records, accuracy and reporting compliance of the euthanasia drugs, safety records, temperament and medical procedures on what dictates an animal being killed and so on. The HSHC is using our tax dollars and donations from individuals that believe their money is being used to only save animals. It is time for the HSHC to start practicing what their name says, HUMANE treatment of ALL the animals. Let us see, not hear the TRUTH HSHC.
Karl Schuub
4:32 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
Jen: As long as ANY public monies are given to the shelter I will have a right to see what monies are being spent and where. I'm venturing to guess the large majority of donors to the shelter really haven't been fully educated in terms of feral cats or they'd want to specifically request those monies be spent in some other less controverial area.
Karl Schuub
4:48 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
In my mind a disturbed person ignores public concerns and native animals because feral cats trump all. That is truly sick.
Karl Schuub
4:57 pm on Sunday, October 23, 2011
The myth that cats predate birds. Are you freakin' kidding?
Karl Schuub
7:32 pm on Monday, October 24, 2011
You folks refer to Nutter pretty extensively because it's just about the only seemingly decent study you believe supports your cause...but "one of the ways you can really find out the truth, what an author really saw, is to go to the authors and talk to them. If you talk to Dr. Nutter or her primary mentor Dr. Stosskopf, they will tell you that what they observed was a very mixed bag. Only smaller colonies, those with no more than 15-25 to start with, with high spay rates and very few drop offs (essentially closed), and those colonies where care takers were willing to put in years and years of policing the situation, experienced decline. And what were there, 8 colonies ? Funny small sample size doesn’t bother you here…..
You might also ask them how many cats were taken from colonies and moved elsewhere. Julie Levy’s famous “TNR success” in Florida was only able to keep the population near stable by removing and transplanting cats. How does moving a problem elsewhere qualify as successful population control ?
The one small colony of Nutters that declined 89% did so because a pack of dogs came through and killed nearly all of them. I can’t see that as either humane or effective population control, so maybe you can forgive Michael for generalizing by saying TNR didn’t work."
Fact is you folks really don't want to reduce cat populations; you just want to play with cats, to feel important and you don't care what damage is done through your actions.
HarfordLassie
11:58 am on Thursday, October 27, 2011
Follow up- http://belair.patch.com/blog_posts/animal-house-follow-up-on-harford-humane-society
Sorry about the formatting of the outline. It didn't seem to convert correctly.