The "traffic nightmare" to which you refer is primarily because the brand new intersection made Rt 24/Tollgate traffic worse than ever. An overpass should never be built where there is not sufficient land for a proper cloverleaf. Those driving from Edgewood/I95 toward Rt 924 unserstand that the overpass design has made traffic much worse in this area. BelAir residents should aggressively protest the new WalMart location because traffic is already lousy on this section of Rt 24, and because Harford County has proven with the Rt 24/Tollgate debacle that it cannot be relied on to make the necessary infrastucture improvements to accomodate the store. It would take a childish imagination to believe that traffic and life in general would not be adversly affected by this new WalMart in BelAir.

How has this intersection been a debacle? This intersection does the best job to control the traffic with the given space. Now the travel time has been cut between Bel Air and the I95. To me this is a success. All you have to do is be a responsible driver to understand this.

Wholeheartedly disagree with you, Richard. Because of the new configuration all traffic going ito either 924 or Tollgate Road need to que up in the far right lane well before the I-95 overpass of RT 24. I challenge you to get from Egdewood to the Abingdon WalMart in 25 minutes or less between the hours of 4-6PM. This trip by a responsible driver took about 15 minutes before the costly "improvement".

I have to agree with JP on this. The design is poor and the signs are unclear about which lanes you should be in for what. I avoid that intersection at all costs now... as do a lot of other people I know. Perhaps that is why it has alleviated traffic, people are just avoiding it.

Obviously JP is an inattentive driver. It's been nearly a year and you still haven't figured out the new pattern. As a CF resident, I love the new interchange. Access to 24/95 is so much better and safer. The purpose of the interchange was to reduce the amount of backup on 95N during evening rush hour. That was accomplished. Yes, it takes longer now to get form Edgewood (APG) to Abingdon between 4-6pm (it's called rush-hour) but that blame is on motorist who after nearly a year still wait until the last minute to cut over. Cloverleaf? That design is so out-dated, especially for large traffic exits. Most cloverleaf exchanges are being eliminated. JP, pay attention when you drive and think ahead of your route. Simple. Ashley, what signs are unclear? Even if they were unclear, wouldn't you learn after using the intersection how to navigate it? The people going through that intersection are daily users for the most part, so saying it's confusing means you don't pay attention and are either unwilling or unable to learn something new.

Chris, my attentiveness is quite superb. And I have been well aware of the new traffic pattern since the overpass was installed, as I drive this way daily. If you had read my complaint about rush hour traffic carefully you would have noticed that my whining was not that rush hour traffic was bad, but that our tax dollars were used to make rush hour worse. I agree that cloverleafs are on their way out in a lot of places, but this is a cost and land availability issue, not one of efficiency. Moving traffic flows better than does traffic at red lights...always has, always will. This is why cloverleafs are still being installed as on and off ramps for freeways and most other major overpasses. Many commuters repeatedly stuck in that Rt 24 traffic wish that a cloverleaf option had been possible. Overall, the promised traffic improvement in that area did turn out as advertised. So I am cautioning people to be aware of this in case civic leaders promise that road improvements will be implemented to accomodate the increased traffic for the proposed new WalMart at Plumtree.

The traffic nightmare I'm mostly referring to is the Christmas season nightmare at that area. You remember how it took almost 3 hrs for some folks to go from BJ's to 24??? Sometimes on a weekend it gets a little hairy depending on what time you are down there also. I still don't understand why there is only one way out--there should be an exit out down near BJ's even if it's just to go southbound or get on 95 south.

JP, Your discounting the overall success of the interchange just because of the traffic on their way to Wal Mart. If this is the only issue then this interchange is a success. Traffic from Bel Air to I95 south has improved, Traffic from Edgewood to Bel Air has improved, Traffic backing up on I95 for people going to Bel Air has improved. I will not proclaim this interchange to be perfect, but I will say it is far better then the gridlock before hand. So just because your trip to Constant Friendship business center is not to your liking I am sorry. I will blame the majority of the that traffic issue on the horrendous planning of that shopping center as a whole. That entire shopping center is a bottle neck in the worse way. So your blame is partly misguided. Another factor you should take in consideration is the drivers themselves.

I can not count how many times the backup on I95 has either nearly killed or killed people because of people going an average 75mph and coming to a screeching halt because the right lane was at a stand still exiting to rt 24. I also can't count how many times before the new interchange was implemented that the backup for vehicles turning onto tolgate rd became such a delay for people that they would blow the light after the turn arrow turned red because of their impatience. I think the biggest factor in this was the improvements made to help curb the stupid impatient drivers who have a sense of urgency or failure if they didn't make through the turn in the cycle when they arrived. If you want to complain about ludicrous traffic improvements take a look at the new traffic circle being implemented on Rt 7 in Bel Camp... That is plain stupid.

I think it is great! The old store has been outdated for years. Bel Air is no longer a small sleepy town. We might as well accept that. That area of Emmorton Road is already commerical.

924 cannot handle all the traffic. Its already congested as it is. Walmart will just make it worse.

I did not know firehouse's caused lots of traffic? Really? Come on. Where were all the haters when Sonic was opening.

I was really excited for the Sonic, but I turned a blind eye to thinking about the effects on traffic etc. This Sonic has contributed to an increase in traffic that is noticeable. But as OldHarfordCounty asked I assume they are sitting at Sonic after 8pm getting a half price Milk Shake.

I didn't know we had an Oak Crest on 924. Is that new?

I agree 100% ---Bel Air is turning into another White Marsh.. what a shame

Problem is.....its not likely that the space will sit empty - I'm sure that the money-hungry politicians in this county will find a buyer for it so the traffic situation will get even worse!!!!

It's not that we "don't want" a Walmart there. It's the same problem you mentioned about the Abingdon Walmart...... the traffic. This location will cause more problems in an already heavy traffic area.

Problem is, how can we possibly need another one when the Fallston one is just a few miles away? The price we will pay for the building of this one will not be seen in dollars and cents but in our sanity. Overcrowding our area like too many rats in a cage.
I find it sad in a time where our local businesses need our help the most we only wish to push the small business owners down.

How are BelAir office buildings useless? My understanding is that occupancy is pretty good in most BelAir office space. I would much rather see an office park in that location than a WalMart.

Looks good - a Walmart looks good? You and I have a very different opinion obviously about esthetics.

Harford county planning and zoning
410-638-3227 or 410-638-3103

email: asmcclune@harfordcountymd.gov

C. Pete Gutwald, Director

We all should be contacting the zoning division

Small, medium, or large, I'm for nearly All business, but not all business is appropriate for all locations. There are appropriate spots for WalMart stores, and the Plumtree area is certainly NOT one of them due primarily to traffic and the shear scale of WalMart stores. Most people who live in and around Plumtree are not clamouring for a WalMart right down the street. The Abingdon location is more appropriate because frankly it is a big box store destination (WalMart, Lowes, Target, BJ's) stores are the only thing in that area...and there is access to I-95. The problem I have with WalMart is that they have historically demonstrated a propensity not to care what communities want. They see the fact that people shop at these stores as proof that they were right, when the reality is that most WalMart shoppers come from outside of the immediate communities in which they are located.

So because of Wal Mart's size it isn't appropriate? That seems silly since Bel Air is the Hub of shopping in Harford County. Again the traffic debate is futile. The traffic is a problem no matter what. But the word traffic is pretty vague in everyone's comments here. God forbid we have traffic and actually have to drive the speed limit... God forbid we have to drive and actually pay attention instead of eating, reading, texting, talking etc while driving... The traffic argument is pathetic. Your community argument is by far more valid but still not really an issue. Obviously a majority of the people in that neighborhood are not clamoring for a Wal Mart. But I am sure after it is built they don't mind the shorter trip to the local Wal Mart. We as a society are stuck on convenience. We will complain about something like this and then after it is built we utilize it. So it really isn't an argument anymore. They have historically done what every other business does, look for the best locations with the greatest possible reach to its customers. (IE where to make the most money). It's called business for a reason. If it is such a huge issue then I expect to never see you at Wal Mart. I didn't see this much resistance to the Sonic going in... That place generates just as much traffic as a Wal Mart would...

Richard, the Sonic to WalMart comparison is a poor one. There is NOT as much traffic to a Sonic as at WalMart, especially when you consider the steady stream of large delivery trucks to a WalMart at all hours. And most people did not complain about a Sonic because unlike retail stores there is a shortage of eating establishments in Harford County...and there is not another Sonic in reasonable driving distance. And last time I drove by that Sonic I observed that it takes up perhaps a half acre of land at most, not the 33 plus acres of a WalMart store. You are free to be a WalMart lover, but there is absolutely no valid argument that the Plumtree location is an appropriate location for a new WalMart in Harford County.

I am not arguing to say I want a Wal Mart in Plumtree, I am arguing that everyones argument against it is flawed, pathetic, etc The comparison is not a poor one in when used in context of traffic, since that was the pointed to issue. On several occasions I have stopped at the new Sonic to find the line for the drive in backed out to the light on the other side of the pharmacy, and back into the entrance to the home there. As for a shortage of eating establishments that is crazy. All I see is Restaurants Everywhere!!!!!!!!!! This is going to happen not because the politicians are lining their pockets, or because Wal Mart wants to destroy America, It is going to happen because the local public generally doesn't mind and is more then willing to spend their money at Wal Mart. Wal Mart spends billions on research and development. They know almost for a fact where their stores will be successful. So if they are wanting to build at that location, then obviously there isn't enough opposition.

For the Record I am not a Wal Mart lover, I just live in reality and know that the Wal Mart Haters still in fact shop at Wal Mart.

R. Lynn -
1. Agree with your traffic concern.
2. I do not believe WalMart has a monopoly on crime in HarCo.
3. Your xenophobic rationale is a poor one.
4. You can't blame EVERYTHING on Obama!

I agree with you about the overpass. I didnt even comment on the person saying traffic is worse than before because I drive it everyday. It is without a doubt, a HUGE improvement over the way it was before.

Exactly the way I feel as well.....just like I stated above. When voting comes around, you get to choose this crook or that crook!! They're all the same.....worse than car salesmen!!! They all say what you want to hear just to get into office!! Just like I stated.....their minds are already made up.....they see the money at the end of the rainbow......the "community meeting" is to apease the people of this county.....no other reason!!!!

Its the way politicians think!! Why would we need somewhere for our children to occupy their time when we could put in another pizza joint - because we difinitely needed another one!!!! NOT!!!!!......but, again, another business in and money for the county......thats what the politicians all think!!!!! Very aggravating.........

Kelly,
This is the exact reason why they want to build this Wal Mart! Because of the development restrictions preventing them from expanding the Abingdon Wal Mart location.

Thats pretty funny!! Too many exclamation points is because I used to work for real estate agents and I wrote all their ads for them......exclamation points made the houses more appealing!!! haha.......and as for "ellipses" - I have no idea what they are and can't even find the word in the dictionary....but it sounds like a good word...thanks for the thought.

Alana....these....are.....ellipses....you should try....using...like...you know....periods....instead.....

She's also racist against car salesman...

Deanne,
I think you are mixing emotions with geography. Having no crosswalks for crossing 924 wouldn't threaten your kids walking to their School. If there are no crosswalks on Patterson Mill rd then there is a big problem. If your kids and other kids are cross that road daily or even every now and then, then there most definitely should have crosswalks, but that issue is pretty much unrelated. And I am not to believe that a Wal Mart on the other side of 924 would increase a noticeable increase in traffic on your stretch of Patterson Mill Rd. I agree that cross walks need to be implemented on 924 now that more growth as far as new businesses have gone in that area. As far as the "small town feel" goes that will never go away as long as small businesses continue to stay networked and active in this local community. As for the visual aspect of the small town feel the "Downtown" Main street will not change because of a Wal Mart on Plumtree. The Festival of Bel Air is one of the largest shopping centers in Bel Air. Having a Wal Mart right next to it basically isn't going to change much. So I don't see how that specific area was consider or deemed "Small town feel". That "Feel" has been reserved for the main street corridor it seems in the past couple years.

What I mean by not noticing an increase in traffic is the people traveling Patterson Mill are traveling that road to exit the development there no matter where they are headed. If this was an increase in houses on Patterson Mill then this would be a completely different discussion. The amount of traffic for people heading specifically to Wal Mart wouldn't change since Patterson Mill road is pretty much required to be traveled on no matter where the Wal Mart is located. You either have to travel to 924 directly off of Patterson Mill or you travel to East. Wheel Road and then to 924.

Richard, I honestly can't tell if you are for or against the Walmart. Having no crosswalks on 924 will threaten my kids because I still have one that goes to Ring Factory Elementary, on 924. It will also threaten other kids, the infrastructure is not suitable for a Walmart. My comment regarding destroying the small town feel of the town of Bel Air is two part. It is entirely possible that a Walmart can push some small buisnesses over the edge to the point of closing which would be a negative effect on the town. The town is a slow traffic, easy to navigate parcel of Bel Air. If many more folks travel to Walmart on 924 and not 24 then the traffic and opportunity for traffic incidents and pedestrian incidents will rise. If those for this Walmart could voice some sound reasoning supporting the move of the store, I would listen but truly, I see nothing for the area to gain other than tax revenue. The plan also suggests apartments on the other side of the Walmart closer to 24 which will increase traffic at the surrounding lights. Have you ever sat at the light out of the festival trying to make a left onto 24? Heck, the 924 infrastructure wasn't ready for Sonic. I'm all for data and would love to see some statistics on the impact a Walmart has had in similar community settings.

Additionally, many of us are emotional and also have valid points. Perhaps as we type we are a little more riled up than normal but given proper expansion our points are real issues.

Deanne,
I am glad you noticed my on the fence approach. I haven't made up my mind entirely. I see positives and I see some potential negatives. At this point I am leaning toward not going out of my way to help the proposal go through but I will not argue that it shouldn't happen. The majority of the argument I have been making with the people here is about their individual arguments themselves. No has yet put forth a really valid argument backed up with some facts with a convincing attitude. I see lots of emotion with the mention of kids being in danger and the whole traffic is a "nightmare" but I don't see any content behind those statements. With your statement in particular pertaining to your kids, "I live off of Patterson Mill Road and my kids attend Patterson-Mill Middle/High school. It is already very treacherous to cross 924 in any spot, there aren't actual cross walks and the traffic (especially during times busses arrive and depart) is very heavy." I read that you live on Patterson Mill road and you were concerned that your kids crossing Patterson Mill road were in danger because of the Wal Mart going in 2 blocks down the road on 924 and across the street. My response being your kids don't have to cross 924 to get to school if you live on Patterson Mill is not me not caring about your kids. Just me pointing out that the geography doesn't support that argument.

Based on your latest comment, are you really walking over 3 blocks and crossing 924 to get your younger child to school? I find that semi crazy now, let alone after this horrible monster of a store is put in.... I agree that crosswalks should be installed on 924. It is becoming more and more frequented with pedestrians. I can assume that will be part of the roadway changes made upon the completion of the project. This is a valid point that may have already been thought of by the evil empire of Wal Mart, and if it hasn't then I highly recommend bringing it up at the meeting. I actually believe everyone here should spend some time to think about how they can improve the proposed design and setup instead throwing out arguments that don't hold any water. This isn't a mentality that you have lost the fight against the empire of Wal Mart but that you have an opportunity to improve something that may happen whether you want it to or not. Based on the responses I have seen thus far think this is a better idea.

There is a crosswalk (pavement markings only, no light) at RFE. On occasion, I have had to use it to cross 924 to get to RFE for after school activities (the parking lot at RFE is pretty small and fills up quickly so you have to park across the street). Having pavement markings does not really help wih the dash across 924 there, especially if you have young kids with you.

When you look at the site plan at the top of the article you will notice 3 entry/exit points. The first is off of Plumtree rd next tot he current few buildings already there. The 2nd is Bright oaks Dr. Which based on the site plan here will become a light. The 3rd is the utilization of Blue Spruce Dr E , which already exists. I believe adding a 4th directly on rt 24 would be more of a detriment to the already to many stoplights on it. What I like about this plan is the addition of lanes this site plan lays out. I think this may actual improve the traffic flow, if but only for a moment until the population increase more...

That's going to be a nightmare for traffic on Bel Air South Parkway. As it is now, it's difficult making left turns into and out of The Festival. Traffic backs up pretty quickly in that area. Adding more traffic from Blue Spruce is going to make that worse. I'm also concerned about Laurel Bush. I'm afraid people are going to use that to cut through to Wheel Road. There are a lot of kids in those neighborhoods and a few bus stops right on Laurel Bush.

The proposed upgrades to the current road will calm your fears. Lets be realistic, this isn't going to be the Daytona 500. Stop acting like it is going to be a nightmare. Look at the site plan. The entire stretch on 924 will have 2 lanes in each direction as well as turn lanes. "Adding more traffic from Blue Spruce is going to make that worse" I assume you mean since more people are actually using Blue Spruce then currently, well then yes it is worse. But not worse to equal a problem or in your statement a nightmare. I am not sure if you are aware but people "cut" through on laurel bush already. So this is nothing new and isn't something as scary as you make it sound. Please if you are going to use kids as your argument please have a basis or some evidence to go with it. It is disappointing to see people use trigger words like Nightmare and kids just to get a rise out of the opposition with supporting it with any quality ideas or arguments. I am rooting for the opposition to come up with a really good legitimate reason for this not to go through.

*edit withOUT supporting it with any quality ideas or arguments.

This isn't meant to mean kids are not a legitimate reason, but if it is going to be a reason then a good explanation to go with the blank statement of "kids" and "Bus stops". If you want to use the "Bus Stops" along Laurel Bush, then ok I will go with that. But I think that issue isn't because of the Wal Mart, that issue has to do with ignorant and stupid drives not paying attention.

There is no such thing as an accident. There is always a cause of the "accident". You do have a say in what happens in your community. You must voice that say at said meetings this article referenced. You must take the time to educate yourself and vote for the officials who overlook these decisions. You must be active in your community outside of internet forums like this. By sacred what are you referring in your neighborhood? Are you actively using this plot of land to walk your dog, have your kids play here after school, enjoying the outdoors with a stroll, bicycling, or walking? Your argument would be very valid if this were a case of tearing down a active park or recreation area and building a big business. I can understand the argument of tearing down trees etc, but this process of "growth" is inevitable unless Harford County were to have a mandate to no longer allow new housing to be built, no new businesses etc. But because more people are moving here the want/need for development/business is growing. So in basic form, yes the "need" to fill every green space is ever evolving as the population increases.

I absolutely feel the same way you do.....this county used to be considered "country living".....now, the powers-that-be have turned it into another Towson.....overcrowded, too many cars, too many houses, too many stores and eateries.....all for the benefit of the Almighty Dollar! I think its pretty sad.

Alana,
That is labeled as progress. I used to live in a town in the middle of Virginia that had a small town feel. The grumpy old bats that represented us refused to allow building and growth. In short by not allowing new businesses to be built and new houses to be built. The town plunged into poverty. People moved out and the town started to go broke. The only saving grace was the few inherently rich people who lived within the limits. In short if a town isn't growing then it is falling to pieces.

Richard...unless the town you live in was isolated from any other already existing commercial area saturating a town with strip malls isn't necessary to produce what you apparently believe is progress. Progress is not squishing us all together like rats in a cage. Livability matters and frankly we have enough store fronts to last a lifetime. If we could convince only 10% of the people to avoid Walmart in protest that's enough to shut them down even in thier current location. The dog can wag the tail for a change.

When I read your comment I can't help but read between the lines and notice the border line racism or prejudice of a perceived "lower class". This comment disgusts me and is a prime example of a large societal issue our country is facing right now.

It's not a matter of just what you need, it is private property and if it is within the zoning they should be able to do with it what they want. Same goes for you and your property. How would you like someone to say to you "Don't sell to those people, they will have too many friends visiting from Edgewood.... or worse Fallston. BTW: shopping at Wal-Mart will remain optional. Just because they are near you there is no law requiring you to go there. If you are against this, now you know how we feel about all of you who came here in the 70's and 80's and ruined our nice community. Has not been the same since then. So if we have to put up with all y'all, Welcome Arkansas to Bel Air.

Well said OldHarfordCounty. I myself am a transplant from VA, although not by my choice because of a marriage in the family but this is where I grew up after the age of 8. So I call this place home and have an interest in its well being.

haha, while I can't argue with this statement, it is a totally different issue that is only semi-linked. I believe you are hinting at the fact that America is the "fattest" country on earth.

Go to the bank, get a loan, and build one. It really is that easy. If people want one you will make money. If not, so be it.
Everyone saying what "they" should build. Build it yourself.

Sorry, I was referring to the map in this article.

I tried the print feature but it keeps printing only a portion of the map

http://www.harfordcountymd.gov/PlanningZoning/InputSummary/126.pdf

That's from the county website. Much easier to see.

Thanks Patrick!

Again just like the other lady trying to use the word nightmare to describe a normal situation is false. I admire you not shopping at Wal Mart and Target. That is a really cute statement. I wonder though are you willing to allow me to just take a walk around your house and point out all the items you own and use that are from a foreign country? Even though they are not from Wal Mart or Target they most likely are still from a foreign country. In short the reason everything is made overseas now is a result of America entering the world market. Our own market was so far ahead of the rest of the world that when we entered the world market the businesses here realized how much cheaper it would be to take manufacturing elsewhere. EVENTUALLY the rest of the markets will catch up and the costs will be the same or even cheaper to move the manufacturing back to the states. I personally don't see that happening in my life time though.

To your question about where the American companies are, well we are right here! But we don't make the products either. We still by from the manufacturers and then sell it here in the states. What particular product are you looking for to be made in the good ole USA? Do you have this glaring hatred of Businesses like Wal Mart because they don't sell a majority of American Made products or is a blind statement to make you sound patriotic?

*edit We still buy from the manufacturers.

Yeah, that's an unbiased source.

Self description from indyweek.com: "Progressive news, culture and commentary for Raleigh, Durham, Cary and Chapel Hill, North Carolina."

Phil - if you think an obsessive drive to bring costs down does not disrupt reasonable wage rates you aren't thinking it through. I'd rather people work and earn a living than sit home on the dole or worse yet work and make so little money they still qualify for public assistance. There is no moral justification for working a 40 hour week and not being able to buy groceries. In the big picture Walmart is not good for America and neither is Amazon. It would be different if you could achieve a standard of living on a North Vietnamese wage, but you can't because it costs considerably more to live here. To always shop the cheapest is to not care about the long term economic status of this nation. We can't go back to child labor and certainly can't compete with countries that do, nor should we want to but that's exactly what's behind a drive to lower costs and at any cost.

For every article filled with hatred for Wal Mart, I can find one that promotes Wal Mart as a Company that is known for supporting good causes, driving customers to small businesses etc. I am not following how you can blame Wal Mart for striving for what their customers want... Lower prices. And why do the customers want lower prices? Well because their Government is raping their wallet.

Then Richard keep shopping there because it's true you can get it for a buck cheaper and watch the standard of living in this country nose dive as we try to achieve some sort of equilibrium with third world wages. I don't shop at Walmart on purpose and by the way went to Best Buy to get something this weekend even though I could have ordered it on Amazon cheaper and I sure did pat myself on the back just a bit...all those people working there on the cusp of losing their jobs - I do what I can and I suggest others do the same.

I commend your spirit in the matter, but I think we created Wal Mart because we wanted lower prices. We are the reason this monster exists, because we want more for less. Wal Mart just happens to be the business that capitalized on that way of thinking and they did it so well they are now the biggest corporation in the world.

And to complicate the matter even farther I am forced to shop at Wal Mart because I can't afford to shop at certain places because me the average citizen carries more and more tax burden thanks to this great provider we call the government.... I used to enjoy Directv, Netflix, a night out at the movies, etc. I don't have any of those anymore. If I want to watch a movie I have to visit a redbox etc. Why because 80 percent of my wife's paycheck goes to the Mortgage, 2 car payments, utilities, taxes, healthcare, groceries, tithe/charity, GAS, and the occasional visit to Red Robin. Personally I don't get a paycheck. My business is new and still growing. Every penny made goes back into the business at this point.

Richard don’t kid yourself, the spaces allocated for car parking relating to store size has nothing to do with 600 plus cars effect on the local traffic. I’ll repeat, are there any traffic studies done on this?

I’ll also repeat the plat has no indication of trees or a berm blocking this huge parking lot from Emmorton road. If it’s not there it won’t be there! Emmorton Rd from downtown Bel Air to Box Hill is actually a very pretty drive. A lot of the developers have used berms and trees to keep it that way.

Walmart knows what a “neighborhood” store is and this design isn’t one of them.

Here’s a compromise idea. If the true reason for the Walmart move from their present location is to add a grocery section then why not keep the present store where it is and just build a Walmart “Neighborhood Market” store at the new location. Walmart Neighborhood Markets are much smaller than their standard box stores and people appear to like them. It wouldn’t bring in the snarling traffic and no entrance off of Emmorton road is needed, the two side entrances from each side of Blue Spruce Drive should suffice. Emmorton road along the Walmart Neighborhood Market store and parking lot could be tree lined on a wide berm and a bicycle path could run alongside of it unimpeded. It would blend nicely into the neighborhood . I think that would satisfy the traffic issues and the neighborhood blight issues and Walmart would have their grocery store.

Aaron,
You are being some kind of special when you are ignorant to how things are done. Since you don't believe me, go hop in your car and drive to Wal Mart. If you find no landscaping then I will pay for your gas. This site plan has "no indication" of landscaping or "berms" why? BECAUSE IT IS A PROPOSED SITE PLAN. Please take the time to think and do "some" research before getting into a panic about there being no trees or landscaping. As far as the parking spots, I don't even no how to respond to you. Do you think they pull a number out of their A$$...? Seriously how is that you can not fathom how many times Wal Mart has done this that you can't believe that there is a "formula" that includes many factors? Have you ever seen the white jeep liberty sitting around the county with a county worker sitting inside just counting vehicles? It is called a "traffic study". This information is available to you as well if would be willing to ask your illustrious Government for it. For the neighborhood market idea that is fine and dandy except obviously the rest of the space is going to used for something else... and you will still sit their and complain about that without any really good reasons to.

Not so much singing the praises of sad, scraggly parking lot trees as a pathetic substitution for anything considered a green space. A paved parking lot is hideous...it's hot, void of comfort, hideous beyond description. Has Walmart been in touch with you - will you be at the meeting Thursday and voice your support for the store using the same tired bullet points - jobs, progress, Walmart is your community partner, blah, blah, blah. We know Walmart has methods; one of them is to get a number of citizens on board that they encourage promote Walmart to others.

Aaron,
Nope. I am just a citizen who is tired of the same ole rhetoric every time something like this happens. I am tired of the members of this community spitting out the same ole bogus arguments that do not hold weight. I am tired of the government's "awesome" track record of management of our lives. My sole purpose is to challenge everyone to think a little harder, try a little harder, believe in the power of a community a little more, but most importantly to be more active in the community. Unlike the majority I don't blame Wal Mart or even the politicians. I blame us. I blame the community. We don't take the responsibility of our communities, voting, critical thinking, and planning serious enough. How many of us would have even known this was happening unless we saw it here on the patch. I commend the patch for being one of the few resources I can turn to for information and awareness. But I condemn all of us who don't personally take the time to know what the politicians, BIG businesses, and such are up to before it is to late. I am as guilty as the rest of us so don't worry I am not sitting up on my horse. But I am sitting somewhere wishing there was more people with me who yearn for a smarter better aware generation.

Yes Karl, those pathetic trees are the ones I am referring to. A tree is a tree. I do ask though what is your solution for the population growth? How do you stop this building of new buildings? Well unless you stop the root of the problem then you can't it is impossible. Because if it isn't here in this neighborhood then it will be in another neighborhood. Do you propose we be like China and restrict the number of kids a family can have? Flat out trying to deny this is just as bad as it being built without resistance. I propose we be more involved in the process. Those who it affects I would STRONGLY suggest you show up at the meeting and voice your VALID concerns. So far Crosswalks, bike lanes, and landscaping have been brought up. Traffic is a mute point, this is a given with anything and is just something that we must deal with. How many cars do we own. In short to many. If we would park the car and ride a bike traffic would be less. If your complaining about traffic, most of the time its because your IN the traffic. Meaning you are part of the problem.... So please... please take the time to think constructively how to address the issues we just few have noticed.

Richard you sound like a very patronizing, superior sort of fellow. Since when are you the arbitor of what counts as a valid or mute point? I assure you traffic is not a mute point and as far as the rest of us needing to think constructively...sheesh...listen to yourself. Planning for livable communities doesn't mean no growth, it means reasonable and smart growth and includes green spaces - more population means more places for people to live; we've already got more than enough places to shop unless you think we should sleep at the Walmart? You're comments don't make nearly as much sense as I know you think they do.

I claim no superiority and I completely understand the concept of community planning etc. Fact is for years and years now housing developments have requred "green spaces" in every single one of them. Obviously this section of land wasn't considered part of the "community". So I am pointing out that your argument should be directed at who is in control over creating and enforcing those "codes" or requirements. You can't blame Wal Mart for that. I view things from a different perspective. If Wal Mart is itching so bad to expand to a super center then I believe it is because there isn't enough places to shop, or obviously they wouldn't want to do this so bad. I hardly believe they would spends millions and millions of dollars on something that isn't going to make them money. It will make them money because everyone here will shop there at some point if not repeatedly every week. I am choosing to be realistic in my thoughts and arguments. If I honestly believed that the majority of this community was against, and I mean REALLY against it then I would change my opinions. But so far I don't see any real opposition except for the usual "your endangering peoples lives" Traffic will be a nightmare", its bad for business" etc. Which really doesn't have any evidence and proof behind it, just emotion and reaction to the news.

I am wholeheartedly hoping that support rallies against this if you believe it will kill your community. What we are seeing now is a failure to plan many years ago. We can only plan for the future and it seems that parcel of land is destined to be developed at some point.

I don't decide what is a mute point, I just pointed out that the arguments that the opposition has brought up will be laughed at by our illustrious government because it is the same argument that is used every time something like this is happening. And because of that Wal Mart already has a check list of answers used to refute them. Thus my challenge to do better! Community planning is a good argument but in this case it is a day late and dollar short.

Couldn't agree more. There is little by way of open space left in that area and there are many homes. Why not create usable open space; a patch of grass and a couple trees - is it so much to ask for a couple of trees left in the mass of asphalt and concrete. Enough with the strip malls - it's ruining the county.

Isn't there talk of a park in that undeveloped area along Wheel Rd/924 ? I thought I read about putting a park in, but not one with ball fields. I don't know what that would mean, keep it wooded, put in a playground......??

I myself don't care for the burgers, but a half price banana shake with a foot long coney dog gets my cholesterol going.

and don't forget about the tots!

This comment isn't very constructive, I have a hard time believing that the HESS family is completely responsible for this. I would have to think that the higher powers at Wal Mart would just sign a development contract without an agreement. I am sure other grocery stores at the time of development had something to do with it.

Not that I don't wish there is more, but Wal Mart isn't in the business of buying land and building parks. If you want a park at this location pull out your check book and solicit others to do the same.

Hey Richard...I'm talking about a park close to the hundreds of homes right in that vicinity. You don't think people unfortunate enough to live inside the now determined developement envelope might deserve a patch of green without getting in thier cars and traveling for an hour? Deer Creek, Rocks, Gunpowder?? You clearly know nothing about parenting. Suppose you're a mother with two little kids and just want to take them outside to a playground or toss a softball with them - packing for the day just to see what a tree used to look like doesn't always work. Good community planning needs to allow for easily accessible green spaces throughout the communities - not to include open space diminishes the qualify of life for all residents.

Karl, 6 on that list are within 8 mins of Patterson Mill Rd. How can you sit there and say I know nothing about being a parent. You do not know anything about me. Please come back to reality. You are using emotional claims to try and keep Wal Mart out. It is pathetic that you think this 33 acre plot is the last hope for your kids, when you are just to damn lazy to drive 3 mins to HARFORD GLEN. People like you who try to be clever and belittle others just piss me off. Grow up.

Actually I am glad you made that comment Karl. I do suppose to be a parent. Except I don't really intend on having to "Pack" my kids up to go anywhere. I just take my kids and go. I am not going to buy all the useless crap that my kids don't need. That includes a tv screen for the car, bedroom, stroller, etc. It is called a little bit of ole fashion quality time. If it is to much of a hassle to take your kids somewhere then I think you shouldn't have had kids.

Sorry I forgot to mention the largest playground I have seen in a long ways just 2 mins from Patterson Mill rd...

Richard; then you should have listed the 6...all the others were clearly put there in an effort to make it appear as if we had open space out the wazoo which we don't. You've been exposed and you don't like it so you resort to insults. I'm talking about parks within walking distances of communities - places where dad can take the kids by the hand and walk to after work - that's quality time too. You know what pisses me off? It's people that act all superior and clearly have an agenda and an argument for that agenda that doesn't take into account common sense.

And it's not like there are any schools nearby surrounded by green space...

Karl
What has been exposed? The only thing that has been exposed is the lack of planning that was made when they built your neighborhood however many years ago. Your comparing apples to oranges and mixing emotions with this Wal Mart issue. How long have you lived in your current house? What street are you on. I will help find this "quality" time. And for the record when I say WE or us AMERICANS I am referring to ALL of us. So don't take it as if I am singling you out. Some how you have rationalized the thought that because your neighborhood neglected to build an adequate park to fit your quality time idea, that this is Wal Marts fault and there business should be modified to fit your new desire for quality time. I will say it again, this entire conversation is reactionary on your part. This topic didn't come up until Wal Mart proposed building a new bigger and better Wal Mart somewhere within your smelling distance. The concept of green space to you changes depending on what fits your argument. Please pick a specific part or idea and lets discuss it. I listed all those places because they are what is in Harford County. You claimed none were within driving distance worth "Packing up" the kids. Now you have narrowed it down to just walking to this park. If that is the case then I have used the handy tool of Google maps and I can see a sliding board from space. Would you like directions?

I have never said or act like there is all this open space. No on the contrary I see that dwindling space. That space is being used to support the growing population in the area plain and simple. A reminder when you insult someone or even give a little ribbing, please inspect the same back.

*Expect (not inspect)

Again your exagerating, an hour to get to a park? I will repeat, Harford Glenn is literally 3 minutes from Patterson Mill. That is barely enough time to turn the TV on in the car.

Really your best argument is it is too hard....? Well this sums up my point perfectly.

Ok you want to jog "out of the sun". I call BS. You are an American Citizen who no matter how man parks are built are still going to be to busy, to tired, or it is going to be to hard to get there any way because you have to cross the deathway of 924 as you make it sound. I am not directly talking you Common Sense but our society in general. Face the truth, we Americans are fat and lazy period.

Not to mention all that lugging back and forth just to reach a green space to spend time with your kids ends up burning off more gas fumes. If it's important that we walk and ride bikes then somebody needs a place to do that closer than 10 miles away. It you looked at a map based upon population density you'll clearly see fewer green spaces just where the largest concentration of population resides. This 36 acre patch would be ideal to save as a natural sanctuary in the middle of a high density area and it'll be the last chance to do something like that because there are no more large tracts left.

KARL,
More then half of those I listed are within 10 miles of Patterson Mill. Stop with the nonsense excuses. I am all for this plot being a park. Your missing the point now. If this was such a great idea for a park then why was it only brought up now that a Wal Mart is proposed? Fact is your idea is a day late and dollar short so to speak. Considering the financial situation we the "community" is in. This is the type of cause you should have taken up long ago before Wal Mart even considered building here. These causes are noble but reactionary. I encourage you to be proactive with this kind of stuff BEFORE Wal Mart wants to build something.

If I am wrong then show me the money to purchase the plot, build the trail, maintain the trail etc. Didn't think so unless you want the Government to annex the land. Yeah that is a great Idea. The government taking something for the "greater Good". Sound familiar?

Richard...so we're all fat and lazy, we wait too long, don't stick to the topics that are important, lie to you about wanting to jog, insist our kids stare at tvs in the car, yep, you got us all pegged Richard. Indeed we all deserve what we get because we're just not living up to Richard's expectations.

Yes. America is considered Obese. We have more fast food restaurants than all the other countries combined. The lazy part can be disputed. Lazy isn't the right word. In short we actually work more hours then any other country in our quest to be the richest nation in the world. So maybe the word is ignorant. We are ignorant to the political process, we are ignorant and take for granted all the material crap we have and don't need. Kids now require cell phones to operate or communicate. It is said how bad the communication skills are of this coming generation. Without email, facebook, or blogs they can't seem to convey their thoughts into a complete sentence. Again you specifically are taking offense to generalizations. Your viewpoint is going outside of your bubble so to speak. I am not claiming to be the best at everything or anything for that matter. What I am trying to point out is that I am atleast, aware of our societal short falls and am not afraid to admit that I am right in the middle of it. The first step is to admit there is a problem before it can be addressed. Why do you believe we are not these things I have mentioned?

*Your viewpoint isn't going outside of your bubble so to speak.

Thanks to my "no child left behind" education my grammar and english skills are subpar.

Come on Karl, you are taking every example as if I am talking about you. I don't have any expectations of you or your kids except for one in this particular case. I did expect when this conversation started that you would have felt this strongly about this particular 33 acre lot before Wal Mart proposed building. I even looked for an article or a post by you about it but I found none. So I assume your out-spokeness is a reaction to Wal Marts plan. So you are blaming Wal Mart for lack of green spaces, resulting in you not being able to have quality time with your kids. That is a crazy rational train of thought. And on top of that when little ole me challenges you with a different way of thinking, you get upset.

The fact that your confidence lies with the Government is the scary part... Your not paying my health care costs. I pay for my own health care. By the way if I couldn't pay for it I wouldn't want you to anyway. But I have no choice in that matter now thanks to the great provider we call our Government.... See I personally hate the fat slobs that us Americans have become. We are personally responsible for the amount of Fast Food restaurants that have been built. Because we are addicted to convenience and cheap food. We have put our own local farmers out of business. We have put our own manufacturers out of business. If not directly then indirectly by voting in these morons we "trust" to take care of us. We shouldn't be relying on the government to take care of us in the first place. If you don't buy from a local farmer you have absolutely no right to complain about fast food etc.

So it is ok for establishments to built as long as they are only done in small increments that you don't notice? Again this is my plea for better reasoning and remarks. If this was a Kleins what would be your viewpoint?

What is considered to be the "neighborhood"? This is an honest question. Is their a per mile radius, etc?

Ok so by that definition you already have a Wal Mart in your Neighborhood. Why such a big deal if you get a new one that looks modern, cleaner, updated, that is in a different location within your Neighborhood? One by the way that will be hiring before it opens up for your teenagers in your neighborhood who can use a job.

I personally would like to see a conceptual drawing before I decide what it is going to look like.

They're coming for you next. It's like a frog in the boiling water - the slow creep of supposed progress. Fallston fights it tooth and nail and yet, we've now got a Walmart in Fallston, they've taken a corn field and turned it into a CVS and another MacDonalds - thank god another one; because you just can't go without a nasty fast food joint on every corner. They'll sell you on convenience and inevitable and then when it's half ruined will tell you we already have developement here so they'll expand the developement envelope. It's a self-fulfilling activity where you allow for more and more exceptions to developemental restrictions and then when you have enough exceptions proclaim the need for more roads, etc. and townhouses out the wazoo. Fallston will fall first, but you're only 10-15 years behind or a road improvement away in Jarrettsville. My point is sitting and thanking your lucky stars it's not you only means a delay. I am my brothers keeper and those people unlucky enough to live in the vicinity of that mess on 24/924 need our support.

Bel Air lost it's charm about 1977.

I don't think Bel Air has lost its charm, but I think they charm that you are referring to is different then the charm that I know. It is a generational opinion. I am assuming each of you are from a different generation that I am. Thus our differences in opinions and ideas of what the charm of Bel Air is.

You could always leave, especially since you don't fit into the mold of welcoming, neighborly people that started this community ;)

Come on Take R, I was, and sometimes am the welcoming kind. I just get sarcastic at the newbies we welcomed in the 80's and 90's wanting to stop the growth without realizing that they themselves are the growth they complain about. Heck, some of these people have been in the county less than 5 years and the start complaining. That being said, I would not mind a return of Tom Sawyer Days on Main St.,

Ahhh, gotcha!

Thus why I don't complain, but that doesn't mean I wont point out issues etc. Sorry I can't vacate either. I grew up here, bought a house here, and now I must remain here until my house value is somewhat close to what I owe on it :(

Precisely.

Please show some evidence that Wal Mart causes home values to go down. Is this another reference to Wal Mart only attracting the filth of the earth to shop there? If so I will read between the lines of your comment to see you wish not to associate yourself with us lesser class people.